Curse

FexFX · Nov 13, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

In my defense the mere inclusion of that line of thought constitutes an implicationthat Heros are indeed responsible for the lack of PUG's. That aside, no we aren't at odds. I simly advocate more self tutelage as opposed to people engaging in a mass teaching campaign that will leave many players dependent upon teachers and vets for help in every little thing. I've seen it happen in guilds. I call it Mentor Paralysis. What happens is you get someone who takes a newbie under their wing and shows them the ropes, teaches them about builds and counters and the basic ins and outs of the game. They become competent players, yet they will constantly bug their mentor for help in even the smallest task. It gets to the point where they will stop advancing in the game if they cannot get their mentor's help. Self taught is self confident and self confidence goes a long way towards making a better person both in game and out.

Ah, see, I was citing an example of attitudes I have seen and not attitudes I hold. I think we see eye to eye now.

And I can also see your point about Mentor Paralysis, and while that is something to be aware of, I think a few people suffing from that malady would be preferable to an overall feeling that the community is slowly dying and that the social aspect of the game has been mortally wounded.

Tijger · Nov 13, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

If n00bs don't suffer mission loss after mission loss, they won't learn how to improve their skills. No pain, no gain.

Holding hands for n00bs won't help them in the long run.

There's a big difference between holding hands and showing people options to improve themselves.

If I had not played with much better players and been given the chance to see what they did and didnt do, how they set their skills up, how they aggro'd etc then I would still be at the n00b stage.

Str0b0 · Nov 13, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by FexFX

Ah, see, I was citing an example of attitudes I have seen and not attitudes I hold. I think we see eye to eye now.

And I can also see your point about Mentor Paralysis, and while that is something to be aware of, I think a few people suffing from that malady would be preferable to an overall feeling that the community is slowly dying and that the social aspect of the game has been mortally wounded.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the social aspect has been mortally wounded. It has been slightly more restricted. I think that if anything there will be an upswing in guild recruitment because of this. People are far more likely to play with guildies than some random person. With PUGs taking a blow, and not a very serious one I might add since there still seems to be an awful lot of people willing to spam for 30 minutes or more to get a player group, I think guild groups will be more common.

Personally I think the guild system was neglected in the previous chapters. Yes there were still guilds but a lot of them were fragmented and not very active. What you ended up with were a whole lot of random capes in town playing together and it wasn't always pretty. With the inclusion of heros now the need to find a PUG is less. The elite content and end game stuff is nigh impossible with heros and henchies so you will still see significant PUG activity in those missions and that also makes for a better game in my opinion. Anyone that can get to the end game stuff with just henchies and heros has had to learn a lot. What you end up with are more or less competent PUGs for the end game and that is a good thing. I look at the lessening of PUGs in the beginning of the game as a crucible in which those who have the necessary drive to learn will be seperated from those who will languish in the mid level content and never reach end game.

I think that better players and more skilled players will make the social aspect of the game more robust in the long term. Mentoring is a good idea as long as you find people that are genuinely willing to learn. In my experience these people are few and far between. When I find them I'll teach them. I'll even share a few of my builds with them, which anyone that has read my posts on this board knows is not something I do for fear of them becoming cookie cutter builds abused by the masses. In the end I would have to say that aggressively going out and trying to teach the masses will not be as productive as you would hope. Let those who want to learn come to the ones with the knowledge. That will not only increase social activity on the game but it will also seperate those who have a willingness and desire to learn from those who just want an easy way out.

EDIT: To that end any newbie reading this thread who genuinely wants to learn the game, the meta game and the ins and outs of the Guild Wars world you can mesage me in game. My time is limited but I'm on fairly regularly. Ichio Darkflame and Sai Daimyo add those names to your friends list and message me in game sometime. I'm usually bored out of my skull anyway and I'll be happy to help you out.

FexFX · Nov 13, 2006, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tijger

If I had not played with much better players and been given the chance to see what they did and didnt do, how they set their skills up, how they aggro'd etc then I would still be at the n00b stage.

I would like to submit this as the testimony of a reformed n00b!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

I wouldn't go so far as to say the social aspect has been mortally wounded.

Well maybe you think the condition is not terminal, but many people here in the forums fear it might be. For those posters, and for those who read those posts and fear it could be true, I simply propose an alternative therapy for the condition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Personally I think the guild system was neglected in the previous chapters.

Your points here are valid, and I think that ANet could have done something more to encourage the formation of cohesive guilds...but as it stands they left it up to the players to form the guilds and figure things out...this led to chaos at the beginning, and I think we are finally at a point where a number of very good guilds have managed to survive their own birthing pains and mature into examples of what a guild can be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Let those who want to learn come to the ones with the knowledge.

Chicken and egg argument here, but how wil they know you are the one with the knowledge unless you announce that you are willing to teach? You could be a level 20 Perma-n00b or someone otherwise occupied at the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

To that end any newbie reading this thread who genuinely wants to learn the game, the meta game and the ins and outs of the Guild Wars world you can mesage me in game. My time is limited but I'm on fairly regularly. Ichio Darkflame and Sai Daimyo add those names to your friends list and message me in game sometime. I'm usually bored out of my skull anyway and I'll be happy to help you out.

And with this statement you have just elevated yourself well above the crowd... you have just volunteered your time and patience (when appropriate) to help further the community! I will be adding you to my friends list not because I will seek you for help, but because I believe you to be the sort of player I would enjoy playing with!

Gun Pierson · Nov 14, 2006, 01:19 AM // 01:19

So I've been watching this thread from the start not really knowing what to think about it except for the fact Fex FX wrote a noble idea down. So this evening I was tempted to give it a try. I went down to the shadow nexus, the last challenge mission to get armor for some of the heroes. I alrdy had my stuff but anyways. I see a whammo complain about 3 people from the same clan. They suck he said and left the area.

I start talking to those three people and ask them if they wanne join. A paragon and two rangers. I say spiking is awesome here. We have barrage builds one of the ranger answers, wanne come? Ok I replied, give it your best shot. They sucked horribly and I kept their butts alive for almost 15 minutes. They just barraged the creeps that copy themselves to the point the map was one army against us lol. Was fun. We got 26 points lol.

After that I ask if one of them wants to join me and my two spike ranger heroes so I can show them how it can be done, after which the guy could pass on the tips to the other two. They weren't interested at all, even if I said we'll get over 100 points in no time, armor almost guaranteed. 'We'll manage': they answered.

lol human beings, it's something. Here's a screenshot showing a part of our chat after that disastrous run.

Enchanted Warrior · Nov 14, 2006, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Heroes are the answer to so many having complained about bullies, jerks and scammers preying on players, those making people pay for help, players not being able to get competent groups, rage quitters, etc...

Trvth Jvstice · Nov 14, 2006, 02:39 AM // 02:39

No one here expects anyone to "hold someone's hand" or try to walk a new player through the game. The point is to help new/younger players with advise or simply by providing a good example. You can play missions with new players and point out some important ways to help them through the game without doing it for them.

While I have often helped groups in some of the easier missions, I have never ran any of them. While doing so would speed their way through the game, they would have also missed out on a lot of the fun and strategies that it takes to beat each mission.

Do you really think that, for example, playing the Nolani Academy bonus over and over until they either give up or finaly luck their way through it would teach a group of new players more than explaining how and why to beat it? How many times have you seen newer players wipe out in that one not understanding the concepts of pulling and controlling aggro? This is just one example, maybe not the best, but I think you get the point.

KESKI · Nov 14, 2006, 03:46 AM // 03:46

I find the best way to find good newbi or just nice players is to fake it=P
"I havnet play for sometime, plz lead the way=v="
sure I am lying, I did that mission about 10 times or more, its like my back yard, but I am not going to give advice when no one ask for it.
The good newbi ask your opinion about which road to take, and admit he/she is new to the game. Its nice to play with them and laugh off our death and failier. Then we will try again if we both have time and try new path. I some time ask if they have some self heal skill cause I have a fat hand(of course...its a lie)=P Even with some harder missions I usualy dont need a 3rd run with that same players, and we will put each other in our friend list. They learn I lie to them soon after when they find me "fake" noob in the same mission=P
And there are those players who refuse to think they are not perfect, for them I say "May god be with you, cause I am out" after that mission=P
I like to play with people and I do my best in a group, but I am no saint=P(that is master Togo, and maybe the Prince)

True, with the release of NF I havent do these for sometime, but that is because I am a noob in NF=P I m not faking it!! HELP ME!!!

geekling · Nov 14, 2006, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

The elite content and end game stuff is nigh impossible with heros and henchies so you will still see significant PUG activity in those missions and that also makes for a better game in my opinion. Anyone that can get to the end game stuff with just henchies and heros has had to learn a lot. What you end up with are more or less competent PUGs for the end game and that is a good thing. I look at the lessening of PUGs in the beginning of the game as a crucible in which those who have the necessary drive to learn will be seperated from those who will languish in the mid level content and never reach end game.

What you do get is a higher percentage of people that have never learned how to play in a team. What they have learned is hench control, which is a completely useless skill once you leave the hench/heroes behind and team up with real players.
What you do get is players that have never encountered things like what the whole deal with drawing/pinging on the compass is for. The common 'compass codes' for communicating with the team. (You know the ones, a line there to indicate do not pass this point / pinging to call for a retreat / the go this way arrow / etc.) But think that's it's just a nifty little toy where you can draw a penis.
What you do get is the players that have fine tuned their individual hero team - essentially a build relying on 1 player + X heroes of coordinating skills. Can not wrap their dim little minds around the fact that real people unlike heroes, does not pander to them and only to them and may even *gasp*shock*horror* have their own ideas and builds that work for them and their play style. That real people does not respond with a 'yes Sir! How high Sir!' to their demands to change their build to cater for them. That they actually need to display some tact and willingness to negotiate and change their own build to cooperatively work out a well run and functioning team.
On a related note: What you also do get is less 'self-sufficient' builds. You do get more builds that are completely reliant on the skill bars of the heroes to function to a satisfying degree.
Like the dervish that kept abusing the monk for not keeping healing breeze on him at all times. - Like his monk hero! "n00b monk u sUx!!!eleventyone!!!" (Why he wanted it? To make up for the fact that he thought he thought that with 70 AL maximum armour armour boosting and defensive skills was a waste of skill slots for a tank.)
Or the energy user that builds an all high energy cost skills bar considers their necro hero built as a personal battery is the only form of energy management they will ever need.
Players that are convinced that because they made it this far, their build is teh sUpahhh l33test build evah, can not possibly be changed everyone must change to cater to them, just like the heroes.
What you do get is people that seem to think that 'teamwork' 'compromise' 'communication' and 'cooperation' is big, bad, scary words.

A PUG or five before you get to the end game content, will certainly not cure all that ails all of these players. But if enough do it, so that PUGing is not dead pre-end game, it will catch enough of them before the problem is compounded too much.
Being a good PUG-player takes some learnin', maybe that was not the OP's intention, but for me that's part of what he's saying. Go out there and be a good example before it's too late. Before you have to join up with these people to beat the end game missions.
(Not that you have to join up with them ever, the game is certainly possible to beat with just heroes. But, well... suddenly close to the end, those PUGs looks a lot more attractive.)

(One last thing: My apologies for any abysmal miss use of the English language, is is not my native one.)

Str0b0 · Nov 14, 2006, 03:34 PM // 15:34

First off, your English is better than 90% of highschool graduates here in the United States. Now on to your post. You make many valid points however, aside from " compass codes", which are fairly self explanatory, all the things you discussed are teamwork aspects. Teamwork is something that everyone should have learned from life experience by now. Every kindergartener knows how to share and how to play as a team it's simply a matter of if they choose to. Life teaches people how to work as a team. That being said life does not teach people about skills, tactics, synergetic builds or things like that. Play time teaches people about that.

I don't think it's our obligation to teach people the basic principles of teamwork and cooperation that they should have been gleaning from parents and teachers since they were old enough to understand. If anything we are obligated to teach the strategy of the game, the precepts of the meta-game, and how to find synergetic skills to form a cohesive and functional build. If a player is not sufficiently socially developed enough to understand concepts like compromise, teamwork, and cooperation then there is nothing that you, or I or anyone else can do about it in game. They are going to remain socially stunted regardless of who tries to help them out. The best we can do is make them competent in the systems of the game. Of course the sort of people that don't get the concepts of team play are also the ones who will not ask for help in the first place.

Sephir Demange · Nov 14, 2006, 04:12 PM // 16:12

This game, whether it be PvP or PvE (to a lesser extent) depends on team play. When teaching anything at all, there needs to be a willingness to learn and that is exactly what a majority of the Guild Wars community lacks. Even when faced with the gentle guidance of a genuinely good player, many players will shun advice at least, and in most cases ridicule anything suggested that exists outside of the scope of their limited experience within a game.

Also, it is important in the context of this thread to attempt to distinguish between two terms: noob, and scrub. The term noob has changed vastly since it's inception. Practically, however, it should be understood that it refers to a new player with limited knowledge of the game because of a lack of experience. A scrub is what alot of people in this thread are referring to: a person who has made it part-way up the mountain of knowledge in a game, then plants a flag and declares it to be the top. While it is certainly kind, and could potentially help cultivate a nicer gaming environment (on a small scale) to help a new player learn, it does nothing to attempt to teach a scrub. It's all about mindset. So while I applaude the OP and anyone rising to the challenge and attempting to teach someone clearly struggling I would caution that attempting to teach someone that has no desire to learn will only end in tears.

geekling · Nov 14, 2006, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

First off, your English is better than 90% of highschool graduates here in the United States.

Heh! thank you, making me blush here. Is it really that bad?
I mean, online and all that... but I kind of hoped it was an online thing. Not that they didn't have the capacity if they wanted to. - Kind of thing.
But I digress.

Quote:

Now on to your post. You make many valid points however, aside from " compass codes", which are fairly self explanatory, all the things you discussed are teamwork aspects. Teamwork is something that everyone should have learned from life experience by now.

Should have, yes.
But the reality does not conform with the 'should haves', just look at, to borrow an example from You, 90% of highschool graduates in the United states and the English language. :P
The reality is that there are a lot of players out there that have never learned the teamwork aspect of the game. Not the social aspect, nor the meta game.

Part of the fear in some parts of the community seem to be that this new hero option, makes for a situation where there is less of an chance for a new player to learn these bits. If the low and middle levels are places where the good ol' PUG is dead, where it is not an option - because everyone is heroing their way through the game until they hit the end game.
One of Your premises was that this was a good thing, that it served to make for better players once you reach that stage.
I simply disagree to that premise.
It builds the foundation for a whole slew of other problems, a new type of bad players if you wish. Problems that may turn out to be harder to overcome.

You know how it is, in just about everything, the earlier you catch those bad habits. The easier they are to do something about. The same applies to guildwars and new players.

Of course it is no one's obligation to teach any one anything about the game.
Again it may be my grasp of the English language that is the root, but in this thread if there was any indications of such a sentiment of obligation. Then I am sorry, but I missed it.
All I've seen are calls for volonteers, suggestions how those interested in helping the community along a litte can pitch in and help out. Well that and a lot of hypothetical blatherings and posturing - as should be expected from any healthy discussion on an online forum.

Str0b0 · Nov 14, 2006, 07:00 PM // 19:00

I still believe that a chance to go through a lot of the game content alone, without pressure from a group to get masters and without being told how much they suck, will make for a stronger grasp of mechanics. I do feel a certain obligation to pass my knowledge along. I'm still stingey with my builds but other than that I don't mind helping out. I expect that when I log on tonight and get to play, finally, I'll have a few new friends wanting to learn and that will make me happy. What will make me even happier is if they already have a basic grasp of concepts gleaned from early experiences. That way I can move along to more advanced and fun concepts. I'm a prolific build creator, I just don't publish them. Ever since Diablo I've been able to identify synergetic skills and capitalize on them and I don't mind passing that knowledge on to other people, people scoffed at my Golem rit but dammit all my golem makes a better tank than most tanks.

You make valid points and I can't discount that you could be right. I think that we are contemplating two equally valid "what if" scenarios here. I suppose my point of view comes from my own experiences with the game. Then again I'm good at these types of games. I always have been. They are intuitive to me and that helps immensely. I learned most of the stuff I learned through game play and from this forum amongst others. I suppose I do put a lot of pressure upon the up and coming players to find out for themselves and to have a basic grasp of team play before hand and perhaps I am expecting too much, but I don't like to make excuses. If I can do it I know other people can do it because I am no different from them. I'm not special, or gifted, or luckier. The fact remains that our points of view are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps what is needed is more of a joint effort, more people like you willing to teach team play and other aspects and then others like me willing to teach the meta-game and other gameplay aspects.

FexFX · Nov 14, 2006, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Wow, I went away for almost a day and the thread has finally developed a life of its own! You've all made some excellent posts, and I would like to thank all of you for refraining from Flames and Trolling!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

lol human beings, it's something.

Wow, that sounds like it was a bit frustrating for you, but even through the frustration you say you had fun! Hmmm...Could it be that playing, even with a group of clueless n00bs is just plain fun? Could it be that the point of the game is not to make it through every mission perfectly with a flawless set of builds? Could it be that even in losing we can have fun?!

Obviously yes! And it's in the name of the irrational fear of somehow missing out on a bit of potential fun that most people shun n00bs!
/parody "No Way! The mission might not succeed, and I might not have as much fun because I'll be too busy babysitting and trying to keep the n00b WaMo alive! No Way!" /end parody

Thanks for the post Gun! Whether you meant to or not you demonstrated that even losing can be a laugh! And it's their misfortune that they refused your offer of wisdom. Don't let it discourage you however, there will be those who are receptive to it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchanted Warrior

Heroes are the answer to so many having complained about bullies, jerks and scammers preying on players, those making people pay for help, players not being able to get competent groups, rage quitters, etc...

Yes, and I use them myself, I never said Heroes were a bad thing! However they could easily turn into a bad thing if they end up as a replacement for the community experience!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

No one here expects anyone to "hold someone's hand" or try to walk a new player through the game.

Thanks for jumping on that, because I've grown tired of saying it! Why is it so many equate "help" with having everything done for them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by KESKI

"I havnet play for sometime, plz lead the way=v="

LOL

Thanks Keski you brought some much needed humor in! I like your approach of being the vet in n00b's clothing! I may have to give that a try myself one of these days!

Quote:

Originally Posted by geekling

What you do get is a higher percentage of people that have never learned how to play in a team.

Exactly! Oh and your english is wonderful Geekling! You illustrated your points elegantly and with a high degree of literacy! However I think that the above quote was what threw Str0b0 off, what you should have added to the end of the sentence was "in this game." The problem is not whether or not they learned to play nice and work as a team while making a macaroni mural in gradeschool...the problem is whether or not they have learned the tactics involved in GW teamplay!

Quote:

Originally Posted by geekling

Being a good PUG-player takes some learnin', maybe that was not the OP's intention, but for me that's part of what he's saying. Go out there and be a good example before it's too late. Before you have to join up with these people to beat the end game missions.

While not implicitly stated, I like to think that its definitely a huge part of the spirit of my intentions!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

I don't think it's our obligation to teach people the basic principles of teamwork and cooperation that they should have been gleaning from parents and teachers since they were old enough to understand.

As I said above, I dont really think that he meant to say that we should have to teach those things. I think you yourself later said exactly what it was he meant to say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

If anything we are obligated to teach the strategy of the game, the precepts of the meta-game, and how to find synergetic skills to form a cohesive and functional build...

And this is exaclty the sort of thing best learned in a PUG! Without a PUG you have a player who can play with the AI all day and learn hench control...but that's a different animal entirely than true teamwork! I cant count the times I've played with PUGs that play as though they were expecting the players to be following them just like their henchies would!

oh and:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

First off, your English is better than 90% of highschool graduates here in the United States.

...is probably a small exaggeration (SMALL) and is referring (thankfully) to their writing skills. The spoken english of High School Students is probably on par with Geekling's english for about 70% of graduates...sadly the other 30% sound like they spent their entire school career in the locker room.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephir Demange

A scrub is what alot of people in this thread are referring to:

Heh, I liked your definition of a Scrub, it made me laugh! I knwo the type you are talking about too! The only problem is that scrub has another common use meaning, and might confuse those who had yet to read your post explaining it. In any event, for the purpose of this discussion, all scrubs and n00bs are equal until you have actually decided to give them a try...and my post is concerned with n00bs never getting the chance to prove that they are not in fact just a scrub!

Otherwise I think you've demonstrated a brilliant grasp of my intentions, and I will take your caution to heart!

Quote:

Originally Posted by geekling

It builds the foundation for a whole slew of other problems, a new type of bad players if you wish. Problems that may turn out to be harder to overcome.

I couldn't agree more!! You've hit the proverbial nail on the head! This is exactly how I felt when I read his assertions that the rest of the game be used as a forge to temper playing sytles...if done improperly, you end up with set in stone styles that make no sense! Let's be the blacksmiths here! Let's try to shape the PUGs out there into something worthwhile! If you just throw metal at the fire it melts, and when it is quenched you end up with a formless blob that is usefull to no one! Yes some players will find their own ways and achieve excellence without assistance, but those are rare!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Then again I'm good at these types of games. I always have been. They are intuitive to me and that helps immensely. I learned most of the stuff I learned through game play and from this forum amongst others.

As am I and as do I...but lets be realistic, not everyone can or will!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

I still believe that a chance to go through a lot of the game content alone, without pressure from a group to get masters and without being told how much they suck, will make for a stronger grasp of mechanics.

This seems to imply that if we assist people they will never have the chance to solo...which is counter intuitive to say the least! Right now I am seeing complaints nd worries that PUGs are dying altogether, I am asserting that we should revive the art of PUG so that n00bs have the choice to PUG! Right now most n00bs will have a lot of trouble finding a group to PUG with! Being "allowed" to learn in solo play is not an issue...being given the chance to learn from PUGing is!

Thanks for all of your posts, and I hope to see more in here soon! If there were any points made which I forgot to comment on, I am sorry, but there was a lot said, and as it is this post is insanely long on my part!

Let me close my post by saying that you have all demonstrated that there are those out there willing to give my idea a try!

Now who else out there is willing?

Eviance · Nov 14, 2006, 09:51 PM // 21:51

*giggles at FexFx's bouncey happiness*
I'm glad to see a thread last long enough not to get flamed out of exsistance and I so feel for Gun -_- Maybe his approach was wrong, but then again those three were being stuborn imo >_<

I wish a lot of those people who are willing to lend a helping hand do so occassionally in HA as well. It's rare to find someone pick up a pug there for the sole purpose of teaching them. Back when my husband had time he would. I walked in one night to him at 3am chatting on TS with people who had never done HA before because no one would take them. This was back before it became 6v6 and maybe even before Factions was released. He stayed positive with them even if it went horribly bad, which is hard to do after so many failed attempts.

There is nothing wrong with being a newb unless you are unwilling to learn from your mistakes! Which reminds me... I need to back to presear again... I miss that place

Guardian of the Light · Nov 14, 2006, 10:46 PM // 22:46

What do you think Guilds are for?

Specifically the helpful PvE ones.

Clord · Nov 14, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Simple solutions like give only master reward when played with full PC party and reguired hero in mission. Add title what players gain more they PUG and decrease from swearing. Make so that in latest chapter players gain points to do mission with heroes and henchmen and when not enough points, players PUG to gain more points or otherwise must make full PC party with mission reguired hero.

FexFX · Nov 15, 2006, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clord

Simple solutions like give only master reward when played with full PC party and reguired hero in mission. Add title what players gain more they PUG and decrease from swearing. Make so that in latest chapter players gain points to do mission with heroes and henchmen and when not enough points, players PUG to gain more points or otherwise must make full PC party with mission reguired hero.

*read*
*decypher*
*read*
*decypher*

Ah! Excellent ideas! The only problem is those are all dependant on ANet to implement them... So unfortunately they are not really what this thread is about. But I do see your point, it would be nice if there were more in game motivation/incentive for playing PUGs instead of Heroes/Henches! Unfortunately there currently is little to no incentive from a mechanics standpoint, and it falls to individual preference. However, be careful what you wish for, that first one for example about not allowing anyone to achieve masters with less than a full party of PCs without Heroes or Henches (beyond required NPCs) would not only result in a lot of screaming, but make it way more difficult for n00bs to ever achieve masters since the heart of this discussion is based on the steady decline in a desire to PUG. This reccomendation would result in Masters titles being held almsot exclusively by Guildies...

I like the Title idea, but don't think it should be "decreased by swearing" for a variety of reasons starting with, that would make it the ONLY title to reduce for any reason. (I think...) Something like 1 point towards the title for every new person character you team up with(and actually leave town with), and make the top of that particular title like 10% of the entire Guild Wars Commuinty... or something insane like that!

And that last idea...whoooo-boy! Dissallowing Heores and Henchies in later missions without some sort of PUG points...yah...that one would go over like a fart in church!

I like the title tho and would push for it as it is innocuous and yet encourages players to PUG!

geekling · Nov 15, 2006, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephir Demange

When teaching anything at all, there needs to be a willingness to learn and that is exactly what a majority of the Guild Wars community lacks. Even when faced with the gentle guidance of a genuinely good player, many players will shun advice at least, and in most cases ridicule anything suggested that exists outside of the scope of their limited experience within a game.

I don't disagree that on the surface that is what is appearant.

But... (There's always a but.) Even if they are not at a point where they might be willing to accept that gentle guidance right then and there. A seed have been planted.

Let me illustrate with a story, a part of my experiences with guildwars.

I've not played for so long that I can not remember my first characters and the time I spent in pre-sear not having a clue about how you were supposed to play this game.
Then there was this one guy, we teamed up and spent hours together in pre-sear. Running around doing quests, collecting the pre-sear collector's armour, but most of all talking. Yep, it's the good old experienced player who took me under his wing and showed me the ropes. One of the best friends in the game I've ever made.
Now-a-days, much thanks to this experience, I do the same keep a character in pre-sear and every now and then when I've got nothing better to do spend a few hours playing it and talking to new players as we play.

That's how these things often works. If you're faced with a positive experience of the community in the beginning. - You put the same back when you can.

Anyhow, to get to the point. One of these new guys in pre-sear...
We spent some time in pre-sear, then some hours teamed up in post-sear to do a few of the first missions and quests.
To be honest, he was not a good player, probably would have made a better warrior. Had that whole Leeroy Jenkins thing going on, only well... he played a monk! (Not a smiting one at that, but supposedly a standard healing monk.)
Time passed, I didn't hear anything from him at all for some time.
Then, perhaps six weeks later. I get a whisper from this guy. Simply to let me know that. He got it now! All those times I kept telling him to slow down. The penny had dropped on what I was saying back then. Now he was the one out of the group insisting on taking the time to do it right and make sure that everyone knew where they were going and what they needed to do, rather than rush through the missions and fail in a disorganized pile on the finish line.

So that whammo with mending. Yeah, he might not be changing this very instance. Especially not if there's pride involved. But you never know, give it some time to sink in, you might not ever get to see the change. that does not mean it doesn't happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

I still believe that a chance to go through a lot of the game content alone, without pressure from a group to get masters and without being told how much they suck, will make for a stronger grasp of mechanics.

I will not disagree with that this indeed is one way to learn the mechanics, a very good way at that.
But I would like to add that a chance to go through at least some of the game, preferably at an mid - early stage, and hear a 'good job' every now and then from other players when things are going good. Does even more to shape a good player.

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You make valid points and I can't discount that you could be right. I think that we are contemplating two equally valid "what if" scenarios here. I suppose my point of view comes from my own experiences with the game.

I'd say you're right on the money there.

My own PUG and interaction with other players experiences have been mostly good. I can count the bad ones on one hand and still have plenty of fingers left. More importantly perhaps, nearly all really good experiences, the ones that really does stand out. Have been in PUGs where you just come across some random people and have a fantastic time together playing a game and having fun.

Of course that puts a certain spin on things.

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Perhaps what is needed is more of a joint effort, more people like you willing to teach team play and other aspects and then others like me willing to teach the meta-game and other gameplay aspects.

Now that sounds like a plan.

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Originally Posted by FexFX

I like the Title idea, but don't think it should be "decreased by swearing" for a variety of reasons starting with, that would make it the ONLY title to reduce for any reason. (I think...) Something like 1 point towards the title for every new person character you team up with(and actually leave town with), and make the top of that particular title like 10% of the entire Guild Wars Commuinty... or something insane like that!

Finally, I really do have to add my /signed to the title idea.
It needs some work. The whole swearing deal would be naught but impossible to implement, with people using creative spellings already to circumvent the profanity filters.
And actually leave town is not quite ideal, in my opinion. It'd just create a new 'grind' or 'point farming' of people joining up just to leave an outpost together then map back. Possibly even prevent people from forming groups to actually do anything, much in the same way that people joining a group doing a mission to cap an elite skill, then just leaving once they got what they wanted.
But I could well see a title where each point earned = number of human controlled players in the group that completes a mission.

FexFX · Nov 15, 2006, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eviance

There is nothing wrong with being a newb unless you are unwilling to learn from your mistakes! Which reminds me... I need to back to presear again... I miss that place

What is the Magic of Pre-Sear?! I wish I knew! I too feel this draw to that place and time! It just somehow feels so much more like home than anywhere else in the game...Its strange!

Quote:

Originally Posted by geekling

So that whammo with mending. Yeah, he might not be changing this very instance. Especially not if there's pride involved. But you never know, give it some time to sink in, you might not ever get to see the change. that does not mean it doesn't happen.

Exactly! And I will say without shame that for the longest time I was also a Mending addict! But I saw good arguments complete with math that proved the fallacy of Mending! I learned to let the healer be the healer, and filled that slot with something that prevented damage...Without the advice and patience of others I might never have realized that Mending was a stone around my neck!

For those of you who feel that there is no need to spread your wisdom, I ask you...without your wisdom, how is a n00b supposed to realize that Mending is not the be-all-end-all? I took some convincing, but I had a patient person who was able to explain it to me...and I was convinced when he was through!

Everyone was once a n00b!